NATIONAL BOAT RACING ASSOCIATION

our rules are fairly simple and straight forward, true to modified racing.(no height restriction, boat demenions, etc.  I like the new over lap rules, makeing the rules easier to understand and thus easier for the judges to make decisions.  We can make it easier for the score keepers if we would write 'step up' on the entry blank, if you are stepping up, thus they can score according.  Where we could make some improvement is winner reconigtion.  We should give a patch(which can be placed on a uniform or framed, and a sticker that could go on your boat or trailer, for wins of high point of the year in the class and  the national championship winner.  I would like to see a good design that is about 3 x 4 inches.

 we need to make a decision about weighting.  I would like us to buy a light weight scales that one man and set up in five minutes and use it at all nbra races.  If we do not weigh at races , I suggest we do away with the weights or weigh only at the nationals.  I recommend we videio all races with a simple camera and tripod.  at the nationals, drivers were called over and on review of the disk, they were legal.  You do have to slow the action down.  Timeing---We can determine the winner with an App on a I phone, as used at the nationals thus preventing a tie...We do score differently than APBA, so we may want to look at that. 

We need to consoldate the good equipment in both clubs and have NBRA equipment.  Lastly, we all need to go out a find good race sites and get a sponsor.  To often, we depend on the other guy, which includes myself.  See you in KC....We had a Great Year!

I do not agree with consolidating equipment. Clubs should have their own. That way, possibly, it'll be maintained.

   Ha - Doc - they still wont call  the  overlap rule - happen  to Matt at  nationals - I say, rather than be  frustrated when  it  happens  and  not  called  - let's do away  with  the rule and let  the drivers police themselves  - that is  what usually happens  anyway.  Other  than  DQed for  a heat, that is  all that  happens  to the offending  driver - the  real loss is  the  driver it  happens  to -  He  may not  finish that heat and /or  lose position in the  heat  - and - if  he  flips or gets  damaged  due to  the cut off  - then he  may be out  for both  heats  -  seem fair  - huh?

   Another thought is  the  racing commissioners - there is  a  rule  in  the  book about a state has  to  have at  least

   "5" racing or lifetime members in  order  to  have  a commissioner.  This  rule  prob  ought  to  be deleted, I doubt  it  is followed.  And  prob  to get  fresh decisions and fresh  ideas  -  I suggest  a  2-year term  limit  - as  to  give others  a  chance to  serve.     just  a  thought

Equipment can stay in the clubs, but brought to the race, and maintained by the club.  I understand Andy, we need rules that turn judges can understand.  We need to put drivers with knowledge of the rules.  We could have a short session with the ref and judges to go over the rule.

 One old rule that we keep hanging onto is a five boat limit for a National Event. Think about this!! 

I think if this was changed to 3 boats it might even help that class out. Another way to think about this is whats more important having 3 or 4 drivers get a chance at a Nationals that they spent time and money for, or having a 5th and 6th place? We all know Einsteins definition of insanity so I guess we can keep trying the same old thing looking for different results.

Alan V-25 

i served in the first turn as a judge for 1st flight on sunday and saw no drivers infraction !!

trust me when i say  if there had been an overlap infraction it would have been called !

if you are not willing to accept the turn judges ruling then you we need to find another way to  regulate the  turn boat judging !!!!!

  they are there to  callem as they see them  if you start  claiming a judge did not call  an infraction then  we will not have any 1 wanting the job !!

now i do agree that  the turn judge  ruleing must be done fairly and we should have experienced drivers  doing that job not some 2 or 3 year rookie

I saw one rule broke  by  2 or 3 boats and thats the  inside boat number  where does it say you can have a number on the outside of your boat but not on the inside ?? guess i should have made a call to jack on that 1  if the driver   with only out side boat numbers had made a rule infraction how would i have called it" the black and yellow boat  beared away on the 23 l boat" ??

 that would have sounded real  top job ish lol , perfeshional may be a better way ta put it lol

sorry matt !!

but  i really believe if there had been a overlap infraction on you it would   have been called as  Mike Homfeld  is a record setter and former national champion  and  took his time  re-examining it several times before  he made his decision!!!! trust me i heard all about it several times on the radio & on way back to the motel lololol due to fact we shares  room/ expenses 

if we cannot accept the calls our turn judges make then we will not have any  drivers wanting the job!!!!!!!

1 rule i would like to see reconsidered is the 25 dollar  charge to get a start re-examined , amend it to  say if ruling is good driver loses the 25 dollars and if ruling is  changed in favor of the driver or boat in question the 25 dollars is returned  or refunded to  driver

well guess  thats my 2 cents worth sorry not meaning to offend any 1 !!

 Randy

With the possibility of runing at Lucas and the narrow lake, we will have to make sure our boats turn on a dime.  This issure of not holding your lane, and the outside driver , giving a lane will come up again.  You may only have ten feet for a lane and you better have your boat ready and able to take that lane.  I feel each driver should get a chance to drive the course, if you slide out or can not make the turn, then ajust your fin or dail back the throttle.  It is important that a driver gives the driver behind him, a boat length, a lane...If you are behind more than a boat length, you are going to get very wet..as our rooster tails go back at least twenty feet.

Rowboatman :  At least  a call was made - usually it is  a "No" call. But in  this  case  it was  a blown call -  Even  the driver that cut  him off - admitted  doing  so.  A call that everyone  lives  with , as  when  a call is  made , very  rarely  , right  or  wrong , is  it overturned.  There are no pictures , no video , etc.  to go back  and  look at.  Nothing  wrong  with talking  about  it , if  tempers  can  stay  calm  -   turn boat  judges  are  important for  the  flags  and  for black flag  if  necessary for  a downed driver.  A driver  cutting buoys  ---------- alot  of  these could  be  handled  by people  who have  been  around racing  - hard  to  get  drivers  when  there  are  so  few anyway  and  most  are running several  classes.   

next year  I prob  will be able  to take  a turn  as  I have  cut  my classes  to  two  -  but  again  with some  quick training  there  are  a  lot  of  others  that have expressed   interest  in  the  job  , but  turned  down because  they were not  a driver.  We always say drivers  are  more  experienced in making  calls , but - Iam  not  so sure  that is  always true - prob depends on  their  driving techques and skills  ------  deciding how and who we  allow  ought to  have  some time on  the  floor  at  the national meeting,

Judging a chop or cutoff or whatever todays term is is difficult. We use drivers as turn judges as they have the most recent views of what it looks like in the turn. Doing away with the rule makes no sense at all. Letting the drivers police themselves is on a par with that. Some folks try to stick the nose of there boat where they should not. If the guy in the lead is already turning before the overlap is established the guy guy coming up from behind has to exercise some judgement and not press on into a less than optimum space. If the guy in front lookes twice and sees no one there, perhaps the guy closing is at fault. To avoid such circumstances, I always left a lane in part because I realized how difficult it is for the turn judge and I always wanted to preclude being called for choping when I had not.

As the referee at McAlester, I called the turn judge as soon as the driver departed the boat. He saw no chop. He even then reviewed a video multiple times that was taken from the turn judge boat. Still no violation was seen. The driver that was in the front said he may have chopped but did not see the driver coming up from behind him and stated that he had looked twice. Perhaps the closing driver had not established an overlap at that point. We asked the drivers to volunteer for turn judge, we are bound, whether we like it or not, to depend on their judgement . The last two races I have refereed have had a alledged cutoff involving one of the same people. Before we condem the turn judge, perhaps there is more to the story.

Ok, I was hoping it wouldn't come to this, but I guess it has.

I remember the first time I saw a video of a race I was in, and I remember that the big "wow" for me was that, I realized what I thought I remembered about the way things were out there, was actually not the way it was at all...

Boats that I thought were in front weren't, who was out side was really inside...etc. Taught me a big lesson, that things may not be exactly they way I think they are when I'm in the middle of racing....

So, my point of view now is- if someone tells me that things on the course were not exactly the way I thought they were, I keep an open mind.

So, since Andy Seay mentioned my "name"... in this case my name is "The guy that cut Matt off" I figure that the Presidential debate rules go into effect- that being if someone mentions your name, you get a few minutes to rebutt.

Here is what I remember of that event.

I was going into turn 2 (the dog leg) Rick Miller in front and to my outside. Rick left plenty of room between us.

At that time I did believe that I had  the inside lane... and since that particular turn was not tight, my plan was to enter,stay tight and inside. As I began to set up for that turn, I looked to my inside and didn't see anyone there (more on that in a minute) as I began the turn and just before I started to lean out, I looked again, and that's when I saw Matt, behind me and to my inside. I can't tell you exactly how far behind me he was, but sufice it to say, close enough that if I would have seen him earlier, I wouldn't have turned so tightly, and would have tried to leave some room for him.

 If 10 feet is illegal but at 11 feet it's ok? Who can split the hair that fine. How can anyone make that call.

I'm out to race and have a good time, I'm not into risking other guys equipment and safety in hopes of placing a little higher.

When I came around that lap to "the scene of the crime" and saw Matt's boat without him in it, my first thought was "I may have been the cause of that" It freaked me out, and has had a profound effect on me since.

Back on the beach as Matt was being towed in, I asked Rick Miller if he thought that I may have chopped Matt, and he said that I may have... Before Matt got to the beach, I called to him and asked  if I had done that, and he shook his head yes I had cut him off.

I know Matt thought that I didn't look before I turned, but I did...twice. Maybe I didn't look far enough behind me or something, but I did look, and then looked again, but by then  I was committed and it was too late.

As far as I was concerned, if a buddy and fellow NBRA racer said that I cut him off, well then...He had a better view of it than I did, so I am just going to assume that I did....

We all see things the way we see them... distance, perspective, angles, perception... the same event can look entirely different to any 4 or 5 people. It is my view that anyone reporting seeing things differently isn't necessarily right, not necessarily wrong. If you trust the people who are reporting to be honest...then you gotta believe that they are being honest about the way they saw it.

I am really sorry about the effect this had on Matt's season and on all the controversy it has caused.

Peace

Andy, you said the incident at McAlester was a" blown call". I don't know what made you the deciding authority on the subject. The turn judge, others in the judging boat, and the video do not support your stated observation. Unless you are in the know,

I suggest you not bad mouth others who are volunteering for this thankless job.

Andy Seay - 033 at September 29, 2011 at 1:34 PM

Rowboatman :  At least  a call was made - usually it is  a "No" call. But in  this  case  it was  a blown call -  Even  the driver that cut  him off - admitted  doing  so.  A call that everyone  lives  with , as  when  a call is  made , very  rarely  , right  or  wrong , is  it overturned.  There are no pictures , no video , etc.  to go back  and  look at.  Nothing  wrong  with talking  about  it , if  tempers  can  stay  calm  -   turn boat  judges  are  important for  the  flags  and  for black flag  if  necessary for  a downed driver.  A driver  cutting buoys  ---------- alot  of  these could  be  handled  by people  who have  been  around racing  - hard  to  get  drivers  when  there  are  so  few anyway  and  most  are running several  classes.   

sorry andy  i disagree !!

Any person can throw a flag even  an outsider all they have to do is watch the  judges stand and listen to the radio !!

  However turn judges need to be experienced and not just a 1 or 2  year driver they need to be seasoned  to know and understand the intricasies of what exactly is happening!!

 As jack said there in this case there was a video happening in turn 2 and this is 1 reason it took Mike (turn 2 judge at moment) took so long as he wanted it to be correct ,it was after all the nationals, as i listened to radio conversation i heard it all , jack kept pressing mike for an answer and mike , put him off as he wanted  to be sure, reviewing the video so as to  comfirm or deny his original  feeling that Matt pushed into a less than ideal  space!

if  mr daspit looked and saw  no 1 inside then looked again as he was turning (which most of us do)  then his speed had already started to scrub off and matt would  gain a lot of ground quick (which would in fact make it seem that there was an overlap infraction happening to him)

no rookie or even  a short time trained  outsider could have  any way of knowing or considering this!!

i do not know how long that Matt has been racing  to me it seems he made  his decision and  it turned out the be a wrong 1 these lessons only come with time on the water racing , there is no other way to learn these situations  except in  racing ! perhaps he thought they the 2 boats in front of him may go wide enough to let him in

 however  as the turn had been instigated matt was in wrong place at wrong time and  pressed on any way  which as we all know ended in a lesson  for matt a less than desirable lesson but none the less  a hard 1 to swallow no 1 likes to flip ( I am glad he was ok and hope his boat was not hurt!!)

again i wish to State If you do not like the turn judges call and accept that call as correct and just right or wrong , makes no matter, you wont have  any body wanting to take the Job

since i started racing at age 0f 12 in 1967 ( and had pitted every sumer of my  life before that) i had  a few calles i did not like either some i was wrong, some i got screwed on at a nationals event!

  no matter how i felt i shut my mouth and  accepted the turn judges decision!!

{ even when jack made a bad call on a guy that left me 3 foot in a turn or not lol }  Just kidding jack

 this must be done and has to be done or we will not have any  one want or doing a very important part of our racing and will see quite a few  people coming untrained in the pits lolol possibly even a  fight or 2 lol

this current turn boat judging system has worked since i can remember  back in 1967 to present !! some calls were  definatively wrong and some were right on the money !  so maybe we can improve on the wheel but we do not need to reinvent the wheel !!

The best we as drivers turn judging can do  is watch avidly and make the call we see  with out predjice or malice!!

  and seperate our feelings regarding  weather we like or dislike the involved drivers

rergards to all

Randy (racer X for the time being ) lol

Wow - cool  - at  least  your  talking  about  it  - if you want  to  be  mad  at  what I say - so  be it - does not  hurt my feelings  - and Jack  - everything seems  to  be  a  thankless job to  you - you never  seem  to worry  about what you say either on different subjects - the  times I have  done  a job, I don't  look  at  it  as  thankless , only as  doing  something to  help  the  race day - dont need  a  slap  on  the  back.  As  far  as  how  quick  things  happen and how  fast  we  go - just  look at  the  Summerville pic - while  my boat is  still in  the air , Parker is  already past first buoy, and  he was  the one  who  cut me  off  there.  and  that is  not an opinion.

  I was behind  Matt when he  went out  -  It is  my opinion what  I think and as  anyone  I have  right  to express it . It might  be  the only person  I need to  say  Iam sorry  to, is  Mark,  but he was there .   as  I said  before , the turn judges made  a call - and  at  least  they made one  - I just  don't  have  to agree with it .   As we  can  see and  already know , the cut-off is  a  diffucult  and  touchy  subject  and always  will be.  I for  one  don't  like  to visit hospitals  because  of it .

Been doing this for over 50 years. No different than itoday than when I started. Same problem. You know I have been cutoff by the best and the not so good drivers, I have been guilty myself. Not once have i been called for it. Nor has anyone who did it to me. To me it always been a part of the game. When I had a bad enough problem I took care of it after the race. I usually just let them know I will be getting even. I don`t think you can write a rule that will ever solve the problem. Just my opinion.

That was great Art - exactly what I have said  before -  but the ole - " I owe you one "  will be  there  in  the  back ground.    My whole  point  on even saying  anything was  that usually it  is  a  "no call"  -

Ok - let's just agreed  to disagree - If I had  been on racing commission , I would  have  voted  to back up  the turn judge.  This forum was "Topics for National meeting" -  In order to keep our  referee from being  frustrated and having  to beg for trun judges  - we  need  to come up  with  a procedure that  takes  the burden off race  officials.

 An idea - let 2 cyl drivers  cover for 4 cyl classes and  vivce versa - now  - we  need to come  up with  a class schdule that will allow  this - like run four heats (2 classes) of  2 cyl - 15 min break - then 4 heats  of  4 cyl - and  so on.  each  group  would  present names  of turn judges at  drivers meeting . this  is  just  an idea -   This  might  add a few  minites  to  program, but having  turn  judges  that are  drivers  would  be  worth it - and  takes  a small load  off  the  ref.

I know this is off topic, but just wanted to add my two cents. Everything Mark  (and Jack) stated are right on. Since returning home I would bet that I have watched that video 100 times. It is a tough call but I still believe that right call was made. I was a driver for over 10 years (with a Seay boat 0-33 no less). Mark looked and had room, he also had another boat on the outside of him. As Mark was starting to round the pin the video shows a lot speed disparity between Mark and Matt hence the gap closes right at the pin but after Mark has already started his turn. Any of us that has raced a long time have been on the giving and receiving ends of these types of deals but one thing I learned was that if I was expecting someone to keep a lane open for me I had better make sure they see me within feet of their boat and also never try to force an overlap when two boats in front of you are running close together.( Learned while trying to pass Dudley)  I have no skin in this game, the racing was great all weekend with some tough driving and excellent competition.  It was great seeing old friends and making new ones.

Todd Stone

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