NATIONAL BOAT RACING ASSOCIATION

for all interested the vote are in and all tallied up, all the rules changes that wer proposed passed, ALL EXCEPT one, seems that the drivers LIKE the one lap down rule, it was voted to keep this rule in by a vote of 31 to 7, so hence the score keepers nitemare is still in play,  just remember the 1st one over cannot better his last place finish, so keep this in mind all you gun jumpers LOL  O yea I am one of those guys  hehe   see ya all at the races 

      31 - 7  - mmmmmm Makes you wonder how  many  of  our  members  take  an  interest in  voting.  This  subject  was discussed pretty  heavy  at  the  meeting  and  I know  more  than  seven  people  voted   for  it  to  get  out  to  general  membership.  Guess  this  is  just  like  voting  in  America,  only  a  few decide how  things  will be.  Iam  one  of  the  31  to  vote  against the  rule  change. I believe it  needs  to  change  - but  going  to  strickly  no  points if  you  jump  isn't  right  way  either. Maybe  by  next  year , one  of  us  can  come  up with  a  way  that still  rewards  a  driver  for  being  there  and  at  the  same time  not  hard  on  the  score keepers .

      Oh -- 31 to  7   -- that  will be  the  final  score  of  OU and  Stanford   - with  OU winning  -- GO SOONERS !!!!

                                 Happy New Year !!!!!!!!!

Hope everyone had a safe new years eve. On the subject of this thread; If you are the first jumper. you go a lap down.. which puts you in last place. therefore you get last place points. you still get points. just last place.

Patsy at 10:08AM on Jan 01, 2010

Hope everyone had a safe new years eve. On the subject of this thread; If you are the first jumper. you go a lap down.. which puts you in last place. therefore you get last place points. you still get points. just last place.

I have a black ribbon which hangs near the door to my office, made just like the one's you get for winning something at the county fair. It reads, "Last Place."

Keeps me humble.

Dan

O-49

 Patsy,

   That  is  true -  but  the  rule changed  that  failed  had  a  driver dis-qualified and  no points  if  he  was  over.  The arguement  for this  change  at  the  meeting was  that the  last place  and  lap down rule  was  a  night mare  for  the  score keepers on  the  judges  stand , esp if  more  than  one  boat  was over  and  you  cannot  advanve  position, which can  then  get  confusing  if  the  gun jumpers  start  passing  each  other.  I go  along  with  the  thought  that the  rule  needs  to  be  changed . But I   voted  againist it , as  I believe if  you  make  it to  the  race and  get  on  the  race  course  -  that  you  should  not  go  away  with  no  points , just  because  you  jumped  the  gun. Surely  if  we all  think  about  it  long  enough ,  one  of  us  will come  up  with  a  better  idea how  to  handle  gun  jumpers ,  make it  easy  for  the  scoring  and  allow  a  gun  jumper  to  get  some  sort  of  points  for  being  there. As an idea,   maybe, allow  two  re-starts  if  a  boat  is  over ,  but  on  the  third try , if  anyone  jumps ,  the  race  is  on  and  all  gun jumpers  in  third  try  are  dis-qualified  and  no points given.  That  way  you  gave  everyone  a  chance and  two  re-starts  or  even  one  re-start  every now  and  then  should  not  lengthen  the  program  too much.  Just  a  thought.

                                                      Andy

Really surprised that the lap down rule survived. It has been my experience that if you get something on the ballot their is 99% chance that it would pass. If it had passed that would have ended the lap down rule. That tells me that the membership strongly  supports this rule. I am in favor of the rule but agree that it needs to be fine tuned. I would like to hear suggestions. Art K

Andy it seems that people get confused about this issue, try this, the 1st jumper is in last place the 2nd jumper is in second to last and so on, you cannot better your position even if you pass the 1st boat you fate is sealed in the position you jumped, i/e  if there are 5 boats in a heat and 3 jump the 1st boat over is in 5th the 2nd jumper 4th the 3rd jumper 3rd there is no way to advance you position unless the 2 leagle starters break down or do not finish, then the 3rd boat that jumps wins the 2nd in 2nd and the 1st will be 3rdbut the points will be adwarded in 3rd 4th and 5th

Why not award a set amount of points to the gunjumpers. Say 75 points. That way you would do away with scoring headaches. If you have say 5 or more jumpers I don`t how the scorekeepers are going to determine who was the 1st thru 5th or more. especially if they were all close coming  over the line. Idon`t know if 75 points is the right figure or not. But I do think this would simplify scoring

Art

Andy Seay - 033 at 01:58PM on Jan 02, 2010

 Patsy,

   That  is  true -  but  the  rule changed  that  failed  had  a  driver dis-qualified and  no points  if  he  was  over.  The arguement  for this  change  at  the  meeting was  that the  last place  and  lap down rule  was  a  night mare  for  the  score keepers on  the  judges  stand , esp if  more  than  one  boat  was over  and  you  cannot  advanve  position, which can  then  get  confusing  if  the  gun jumpers  start  passing  each  other.  I go  along  with  the  thought  that the  rule  needs  to  be  changed . But I   voted  againist it , as  I believe if  you  make  it to  the  race and  get  on  the  race  course  -  that  you  should  not  go  away  with  no  points , just  because  you  jumped  the  gun. Surely  if  we all  think  about  it  long  enough ,  one  of  us  will come  up  with  a  better  idea how  to  handle  gun  jumpers ,  make it  easy  for  the  scoring  and  allow  a  gun  jumper  to  get  some  sort  of  points  for  being  there. As an idea,   maybe, allow  two  re-starts  if  a  boat  is  over ,  but  on  the  third try , if  anyone  jumps ,  the  race  is  on  and  all  gun jumpers  in  third  try  are  dis-qualified  and  no points given.  That  way  you  gave  everyone  a  chance and  two  re-starts  or  even  one  re-start  every now  and  then  should  not  lengthen  the  program  too much.  Just  a  thought.

 

                                                      Andy

Andy the do over restart would difinitely make the race day longer. For one thing you would have gun jumpers about every heat. Why be careful on the start if you know you will get another chance. Then you would need to come in to get gas after a couple of tries. At one time the AOF had it if one gun jumper was over you would run the race but if two were over the first gun jumper was disqualified but the second one over could start again. This system was finally thrown out, sometimes you could have 4 or 5 restarts. I think awarding points for gun jumpers is a little un-fair. Let me try to explain. Say you have a full field of 12 boats they race and everybody is legal now you just go down the line and award points in the order of finish. Now say you have a field of 4 boats and two jump the gun, one boat will get 3rd place points and the other will get 4th place points. The field that was legal the 12th place boat gets 17 points while the class with 4 boats the last place boat that has jumped the gun will get 169 points. This just doesn't sound quite fair to me. The  rule if you jump you are disqualified is just as fair for one person as it is for the next it doesn't discriminate.

Larry McAfee

Not that it matters now as the voting for this year is over, but I agree with Larry.

DQ all gun jumpers. If so many people jump that the scorers can't tell who is legal and who is not, re-start the heat. Other than something like that, no re-starts and DQ everyone that jumps.

             Larry,

                        I agree  with  you on  the  not  fair  part  on points. I  think others  agree also  and  that  is  why  the suggestion of  points  awarded  be , say  only  75 points  - not  the  full amount  - so  the  field  of  4 boats  with  two  jumpers  would  mean that  the  third  place  boat  would  only  get  75 points  for  third  ,  not  the  225.  This  way,  even  if  you  drove  750  miles  to  a  race  site , you  could  at  least  have  a  few  points  even  if  you  did  jump  the  gun.

                         You  know  you  kind of  mentioned  another  thing  that  really  isn't  fair but  hard  to  solve.  If I go  to  races  that  have  heats  with  12  boat fields  and  say , I  place  third ,  I get  225  - but  someone  goes  to  another  race   and  in  my  class runs  in a  field of  three  boats , if  he finishes , then  he  is  rewarded  300 pts.  In  the  overall high  point  arena ,  that  isn't really  fair  either .  I have  seen  in  the  forums that  the APBA  guys  are  having  or  trying  to  deal  with  this  - but  it  is  a  difficult  problem to  solve.

                          So, I see what  your  postition on  the  getting  points  isn't  fair  ,  but  again  in  the  gun jumping  issue , by awarding  a  few  points ,  but  not  the  full  amount  - well  -  I don't  see  how  that  would  hurt.  Again, right now  we  have  to  start  building  our  sport  back  up , and  if  a new  driver can  at least  get  on  the  water  and  until he gets  used  to  our  starting  system , he  is  at  least  rewarded  for  being  there.     25, 50, or 75 points isn't  going  to  harm  those  who  make  a  good  start  and  get  the  full points .  And I don't  know  about  you , but  if  Iam  in  a  field  of  8 boats  and  they  all jump  but  me  in  a  championship event , I would  rather  have  a  re-start  - I want  my  championship  to  mean I really  out ran everyone  , not  because  i held  back  and  then sunday  drived  to  a  first  place  - but  that  is  just  me .  

                                Andy

Andy Seay - 033 at 09:10AM on Jan 04, 2010

             Larry,

                        I agree  with  you on  the  not  fair  part  on points. I  think others  agree also  and  that  is  why  the suggestion of  points  awarded  be , say  only  75 points  - not  the  full amount  - so  the  field  of  4 boats  with  two  jumpers  would  mean that  the  third  place  boat  would  only  get  75 points  for  third  ,  not  the  225.  This  way,  even  if  you  drove  750  miles  to  a  race  site , you  could  at  least  have  a  few  points  even  if  you  did  jump  the  gun.

                         You  know  you  kind of  mentioned  another  thing  that  really  isn't  fair but  hard  to  solve.  If I go  to  races  that  have  heats  with  12  boat fields  and  say , I  place  third ,  I get  225  - but  someone  goes  to  another  race   and  in  my  class runs  in a  field of  three  boats , if  he finishes , then  he  is  rewarded  300 pts.  In  the  overall high  point  arena ,  that  isn't really  fair  either .  I have  seen  in  the  forums that  the APBA  guys  are  having  or  trying  to  deal  with  this  - but  it  is  a  difficult  problem to  solve.

                          So, I see what  your  postition on  the  getting  points  isn't  fair  ,  but  again  in  the  gun jumping  issue , by awarding  a  few  points ,  but  not  the  full  amount  - well  -  I don't  see  how  that  would  hurt.  Again, right now  we  have  to  start  building  our  sport  back  up , and  if  a new  driver can  at least  get  on  the  water  and  until he gets  used  to  our  starting  system , he  is  at  least  rewarded  for  being  there.     25, 50, or 75 points isn't  going  to  harm  those  who  make  a  good  start  and  get  the  full points .  And I don't  know  about  you , but  if  Iam  in  a  field  of  8 boats  and  they  all jump  but  me  in  a  championship event , I would  rather  have  a  re-start  - I want  my  championship  to  mean I really  out ran everyone  , not  because  i held  back  and  then sunday  drived  to  a  first  place  - but  that  is  just  me .  

                                Andy

All the boats jumping in a championship but one has happened several times, that was the main reason for the lap down rule.  I'm not sure what you mean when you say a person finishes 3rd in a 12 boat field gets 225 points but a third in a 3 boat race would receive 300 points. They would receive the same unless I missing something. There is a lot of  variables in the number of boat versus the points given. You feel you should be rewarded more points for a full field than one with 3 or 4 boats. Most of the time I would agree with this but if the 12 boats are all weak runners and you place high should you get more points than a 3 or 4 boat field with say 3 of the fastest boats in the country which would make it a lot harder to win?? If you give points to gun jumpers for just showing up that is fine with me as long as you give every driver show up points. They have put in just as much money and effort getting to a race as a gun jumper. This has the drift of a political correct race where there isn't any losers just winners.

Larry McAfee

        LOL - ok  Larry - you  win   -- I meant  to  say  225 points  for  both -- typo  error ---- I think  the  subject  of  the  gun  jumping  issue  can  go  on  and  on  -- so  for  me -- if  it  comes  up  to  a  vote  again , guess  I will vote  to  leave  it  as  is.   And  your  right on  the  strong  or  weak  field of  boats .   Again  another  subject  that  could  go  on  and  on.  I kind  of  started  this  -  guess  I will bow  out  and  get  to  work  on getting  stuff  ready  for  this  season.  See you  at  the  first  race.   It is  always  fun  to  talk  about  this  stuff -- sometimes  from  the talking , something  new  might  pop  up  that  pleases  everyone.   have  a  good  one ,

                                  Andy

No Andy I didn't win, I was just hoping something would come out of this that would replace the lap down rule. I was in the very small group of people that wanted to change the lap down rule. But it seems like the majority of the people who voted think it is a good rule and don't want to change it. 

Larry Mcafee

                       Larry,

      AND  - that  was  the  reason  I said  something  on here  - I was  in  your  group  at  the  meeting  as I also  feel  the  rule  needed changing  or  as  Art  said ,   modified .  But  after  thinking  about  it , I changed  my  vote  because  I did not  like  the  DQ idea either .  That was  how  we  did  it  in  the  70's  and I believe why  AOF changed  that  -  which now  brings  us  into  full  circle.  so, again ,  Like  ART and Like  Larry, I would  like  to  hear  any  other  ideas  some  others  might  have  - It  is  with us  at least  for  another  season .   Needs  to  be  something  that  can  be  EASY for  the  score keepers  - can't  race  with out  them .   I still think giving  some  points  for  gun jumping  that is  a  lot  less  than  full points  is  still  fair  - not  because  they  showed  up - just  a rule  -  you jump  the  gun  your  only  awarded  some  points - whatever  the  number  is.    4 boats  run  - 3 jump  - one  boat  gets 400  the other  three get  50  each -    nothing  wrong  with  that  - all score keepers  have  to  know  is  who was  over  - then  that  is  the  last  time  in  that  heat  they  think about  those  boats  and  can  focus  on  the  legal boats  the  rest  of  that  heat.  I think  that is  better  than  ------ 4 boats run -  three jump - legal  boat  gets  400  and  the  1st  jumper  gets 300  so on .  or  as  the  rule  change  was -- all jumpers  D/Q - no points.    Anyway ,  Too much  typing  for  me   -- Sooners  won

                                  Andy

Good job!  At least we know how the majority feels about the rule. Now we need to add in one little item. (No protesting the clock or the lap down rule under any circumstances.) This will keep everyone from attending a miserable directors meeting after a full day of racing in 95 degree weather listening to how they got cheated on the lap down or clock malfunction.

Just my thoughts!

Alan   

WOO HOO    .... IT DDOES MY HEART GOOD TO SEE PEOPLE ACUATLLY USING THIS BOARD , AND THINKING TO BOOT  ANDTO THINK I WAS BEGING TO WONDER

Just exaclty how is the rule worded as it stands now.? Is it that any jumper receives last place points, regardless of how many drivers jump or are points awarded based on who jumped and in what order?

In other words, if you have a 10 boat field and three drivers jump do the three jumpers each earn 10th place points while the 7 legal boats receive their earned points for positions 1 thru 7?

Or....

Is the scorekeeper charged with the responsibility of recording what order the three boats jumped and assigning points for positions 9 - 12 for those bosts? If so, I can see this being a scorkeeping nightmare.

 Don't  get  me started  on  clock malfunction -- in my point  of  view , since  I have  to  be  a  member  of  NBRA and  some  club  in order  to  race  ,  the least that  could  be  working  correctly  is  the  clock  equipment.  A driver  should  not  have  to  worry  about  that . It should  be  checked  and  re-checked  by  the  race  officials to  make  sure  it  is  running  correctly and  that  the  clock the  driver  sees  is  in sync with  the  light  that  the score keeper  sees  - other wise  anything less  than  that  is  just  not  right.   period !!

Okay, Now I understand what you ( Larry ) was trying to say at the National meeting. It is hard to discuss a rule when everyone is talking at the same time.. You are right in your point that it is not fair to award drivers in a 4 boat race ,and 2 jump, the points as they stand where as a 12 boat race with no jumpers gets rooked.. I agree it needs to be modified some way. But how I don't know.. I have never had to score a race the way the ODA girls have, It is a Nightmare, I suppose.. I did scorekeep the Alex race though,with some good help.. But only 3 races had jumpers and the largest class in those had 6 boats..Gosh this has turned into a nightmare!!!!